ysobelle | On the one hand....

On the one hand....

I set out tonight to get some ribbon, and work on a motif for my sign with Bev. We also thought it'd be nice to see Erin, who, with a broken arm, is almost housebound, and going out of her mind with boredom. So we hopped in the car and drove up to Norristown. And that's when it all started to go wrong....

Well, not wrong, really. We had a fabulous time at Ruby Tuesday's. But of course, by then, Michael's was closed, so no ribbon. But hey, there's a Lowes! So I dragged them both in to see the tabletop I was thinking of getting. Oh, but look! They have cedar! I can get the tabletop I wanted! So suddenly it's 10pm, Erin's broken arm is throbbing because her Percoset's worn off, and I have a trunk full of wood, carriage bolts, and spray paint. Then it's back to Erin's for ice cream and conversation until her eyes start to glaze over from the pain meds she took as soon as we walked in the door. Now it's after 2am. I have no ribbon. But I do have a tabletop.

And in other news?

Why the fuck do I even try? People are always going to believe what they want to believe about Jews. Whether they say, "Israel is killing civilians!" or "Jews are the cause of all the fucking wars in the world!" it's all the same thing. Anti-Semitism rises and falls in fashionable waves, but it never goes away. I'll keep shouting, but sometimes I just feel like a whisper in a noisy crowd.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm sorry you've repeatedly said that it's murder when it's one side, and not when it's the other.

You used me as a sounding board? You started the conversation explosively. You HAD to know it would offend me. You've never, ever asked me anything about being Jewish. You've never come to me with questions. You threw ill-informed, one sided arguments at me and haven't accepted anything I've said. You've taken two harsh examples of people who did bad things, judged and entire religion and culture based on that, and actually said you have no interest in learning anything further.

I'm not choosing religion over friendship. Don't you DARE be that puerile. You've offended the hell out of me, degraded me and my family and my beliefs, and vaunted your ill-informed arguments over any other possible point of view. You STARTED the conversation by telling me you think Israel should be nuked off the face of the planet, and now you seem baffled as to why I should have been so upset I sat up all damned night angry about it.

I am a Jew. I am proud of who I am, and what I am. My family is Jewish, and they're some of the kindest, most open, progressive people I know. I have many Jewish friends exactly the same. I'm sorry your experience has been different, but don't paint me and mine with the same brush as you paint your own. Don't tell me you like me as a person but not as a Jew. My Judaism is my history, my culture, and my family. Saying you think I'm a nice person but you don't like Jews is like saying I'm okay, you just don't like people like me. And that's racist.

I'm sorry you don't see murder is wrong whoever does it.

I've never said I thought murder was right. I don't consider attacks on soldiers to be the same as attakcs on civilians. I'm really disgusted by the suicide-bombs in Iraq, too. It's horrible. I really wish we (the US) had not gotten involved in any of this crap. I get sick at the thought that my tax dollars are spent on this "war".

Religion is a choice. I've never known anyone in your family other than you, so please don't say that I've degraded your family. I've said nothing about them. I'm upset at the Israeli army that is killing civilians. I didn't realize you and your family were a part of those groups. I thought you were from the USA.

And, I'm opposed to any religion, that doesn't make me racist. A religion is _not_ a race. A religion is a choice. A race is not.

antihopeantihope (10:56:08 PM): I won't talk to other jews, likely
antihopeantihope (10:56:17 PM): they dno't seem to like people that aren't jews
antihopeantihope (10:56:27 PM): even if they're family

I've never known anyone in your family other than you, so please don't say that I've degraded your family. I've said nothing about them.

Please explain how you reconcile the above statement about those who are Jewish with the one below it about N's family WHO ARE JEWISH and by default included in the first, generalized, prejudiced statement.

On second thought...please don't bother. I'm fairly certain whatever circular, twisted logic you'd use would cause my comp to go up in flames.

The statement is because I talk to very few Jewish people. This statement could be incorect entirely as I don't normally ask what a person's religion is, since religion isn't something I'm interested in. Maybe there aren't many around. The ones I _should_ have access too (ie, family) abandoned the gentile side on the basis of religion.

It is prejudiced based on personal experience. And, just becuase I have ideas set in my head about how I've been treated by a group of people doesn't stop me from befriending them.

Sorry, like i said.. i've also never talked to N's family. Which doesn't make my statement incorrect. They are included in the group of Jewish people I've never talked to.

And the *won't* in that statment wasn't saying I was not interested, it was more along the lines of the oppertunity wasn't likely to present itself. In the list of people I don't commonly come across: hindu, muslim, most african religions, south american religions - basically any religion that isn't in the majority in this country - Christian/Catholic.

"The statement is because I talk to very few Jewish people. This statement could be incorect entirely as I don't normally ask what a person's religion is, since religion isn't something I'm interested in."

If you 'don't normally ask', then how the hell would you *know* you don't 'talk to very few Jewish people'? You must be basing your statement on *something*, so what is it? A person's surname? Their appearance?

I'm just dying to know. Really.

And this: "The ones I _should_ have access too (ie, family) abandoned the gentile side on the basis of religion."

Okay, on that basis, I should hate all Southern Baptist people from Virginia. My late mother in law was one. She was *horrible* to me (other members of her family, too, fwiw)...said some things to my late husband that were unforgivable.

So, following your logic about your grandmother, I *should* hate *all* Southern Baptists from Virginia, even those whom I don't know.

Can't you even begin to comprehend how *stupid* that is?

And your comment to Nikki that basically goes 'I like you, but not the Jewish you' is just beyond boggling in that you don't understand how bigoted that is. Substitute 'Black' or 'Mexican' or 'Asian' or 'gay' and *maybe* you'll see.

But probably not, because, y'know...that would actually involve using the grey matter between your ears as something else than what holds your bike helmet on your head.

The difference I see between disliking people of a religion because of their actions has more to do with, imho, the *reason* for their actions. I dislike the Jewish side of my family because their interpretation - of the religion - is that if your child marries a gentile, that child is as good as dead. Therefore, the religious part is the part I dislike - knowing that had they chosen another religion, they probably wouldn't have made the same choices. It is not the same as said people being rotten people. I definately would dislike (Jehova's witnesses? I forget - the family that beat their 12 year old daughter to death by whipping her thrice fourty minus three or something times). It was a biblical punishment. It definately would skew my feelings towards that religion, too. And, I feel similiarly to the Pennsylvania-Dutch side, but I think my great-grandmother's actions were more to do with her scizophrenia than her religion.

) A person's skin color, parents, sexual orientation, eye color, birthplace are things that a person are born with. A religion is a choice. How many people say things "love the man, hate the sin". I don't like _any_ religion. Judaism just happens to be a religion, and by default, I'm not comfortable with people that believe in pixies in the sky, any more than I'd be comfortable knowing that people believe that Cinderella was their second-cousin. I also dislike Lawyers as a general rule, which doesn't mean I dislike _all_ lawyers, but they've made a choice to live a lifestyle I don't agree with (except for public defenders, and the like). I also dislke people that drive SUV's - especially the ones that chose to talk on their cell phones while driving them.

Either you can't differentiate between a person's choice, and things they cannot change or you just don't understand that I can. I try to not dislike religion, but I do. Tho, I really think I should pity people that believe in that stuff, as they seem mentally ill to me.

And, I still like Nikki. I've known her for years. She just tends to take some things too personally like I'm trying to attack *her*. When, really, it's just one aspect of her life. She's great in other ways. Loves animals dearly, can sew up a storm, be the life of a party. I think she's a great person, and I'm sorry she gets so offended over this kind of stuff. =(

Judaism is a religion and a race. I don't care if you like that or not, that's just the way it is, unlike almost any other religion we have here.

It's not somehow better to say you don't like my religion than you don't like my race. Both of them equally offend me.

If you say, "I don't like Jews," you are saying you don't like Jews. Like me. Like my family. Like my people. The time to find out more about us was before you decided you didn't like us. Though it's never too late.

Hamas, Hezbollah, and the PLO have targeted almost exclusively civilian targets, and used their own people as human shields. They began terrorist bombings in civilian areas within Israel. Yet you consistently paint Israel as the sole transgressor.

The US is not involved in any ground offenses in Israel at present. How you feel about that issue is completely separate.

Okay.. I don't like Jews (the religion) any more or less than I like people of any religion. And religion is a choice. You are not your religion. It is only one choice in your life. The heratige in your family, which you were lucky enough to be included into, isn't your choice. It is your history. It is similiar to me wanting to hold onto my history: Irish, Cherokee, Russian, German (Pennsylvania Dutch). Those are unchanged and unchangeable, and I coudln't hold that against someone. I don't care what race someone is. All men are created equal. Race doesn't mean Religion. Religion is a choice.

The US attacking Iraq, which is probably the main reason that the "terrorists" are attacking their civilians with suicide bombs (yes, I think that is really crappy, too) is part of the "trouble" in the middle east. It is all linked. I feel for the groups of people that have been kicked for centuries by the "west", and are continuing to be kicked. I consider them similiar to South and Central America. The main difference is those areas are currently working to build themselves up. I see the poor people in the middle east trying to get themselves together, but can't because their infastructure is constantly being destroyed by the agressors (the US in Afghanistan and Iraq, Isreal in Lebanon and Palestine). How I feel about the "west's" treatment of the Arabs isn't irrelevant, it encompasses more than just Isreal and the US. It also includes the seemingly ineffective Red Cross, and United Nations that don't seem to be able to improve the situation. But, maybe it's not their role. As for Jordan, I don't think I've read anywhere about those people feeling like they were under occupation.

I just read the conversation regarding Jews and frankly, was sickened and appalled! VERBAL VOMIT!!! Antihope, you don't know me and to tell you the truth, I've learned a lot more about you than I care to. My father and his family were Jews. His father was one of 9 children and he was the only one to make it to the US alive during the Holocaust. I'll say the word again, Holocaust in case you forget or have chosen to disregard history! My dear, you are a bigot in the grandest form. You choose to knock and put down that which you know nothing about or possibly even fear. If you don't understand it, why not insult it. Does this make you feel better? Do you also knock all people with glasses or with a different eye color than your own. These are also forms of prejudice and bigotry. Maybe and I believe this to be true, you have a small mind, and are unable to conceive of any concept or possibilities other than what you value for yourself. If you knock what you don't know or understand, maybe it will distract others from knowing how really small your mind really is.
I live my life on one belief, what I believe, works for me. What you believe, works for you. I will not knock your beliefs and don't you dare knock mine!
My grandmother said something very profound to me as a child and have kept it and used it all of my life. I will share it with you now. I suggest you internalize this and use it for yourself from now on. "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, that to open it and remove all doubt".

I'm sorry that your family was affected by the Holocaust. Many people were affected. I'm trying to read the Diary of Anne Frank in German. I'd love to get a copy of the original Dutch to work on learning some Dutch, too. What does the Holocaust have to do with the 1000 dead civilians in Lebanon, or the 75,000 or so people that are now homeless (that's what this thread is about).

Religion, nomatter how many people chose it, is still a choice. Eye color, isn't. Nor are your parents, grandparents, country of birth, first spoken language (unless you're particularly gifted). I don't judge a person for what they are born into. I judge a person for what they chose. Religion is the opiate of the masses. More people have been killed in the name of god than any other reason - just look at the Holocaust for an example.

If you want to belive that bombing civilians is an acceptable solution to a miltary action against soldiers, then you have problems. If you are Jewish, Christian, Pagan, Muslim or whatever, and think there are some sky pixies out there that will reward you for killing people (or saying "thank you", or wearing pretty clothes when you go to church/synagogue/mosqute/fire pit/whatever), then I am just baffled by it. "This bomb is from Daniele and Isreal" (to the Lebanese people that possibly died from it).

You can think I'm a fool, but that doesn't mean I am. You haven't even explained to me what your "verbal vomit" is from.

Here is the situation, as I see it:
a few militant radicals attack some soldiers, and detain 2 (compare that to the 9,000 Palestinians - 1,000 held without charges) that are kidnapped and held in Israeli prisons (or the 500 people or so in Guantanamo Bay, etc).

Within hours, Israel reacts by blowing up civilian airports, power plants, bridges, roads, apartment complexes, farms, etc. The environmental damage caused by the oil spills alone is worse than the shit that happened in Alaska - and Israel wouldn't even let people try to clean it up before it continued to do more damage.

I am strongly opposed to destroying roads and treating civilians like ducks in a pond, that are shot just for walking around. (like in Palestine where people have been able to leave their constantly bombed country for 6 hours since Israel decided to continue their barrage on civilians).

So, point for point, what are your problems?

You are upset that I call a murderer a murderer?

That I am opposed to the killing of civilains in response to a military attack by rebels?

I wonder if Israel will even feel the least bit responsible for the wholesale damage they've done, and help them rebuild. I have my doubts.

You are upset that I dislike people that put religion before their family, like my Jewish ancestors (and mostly the Pennsylvania Dutch ones, too) - and that sums up most of my relationship with actual Jewish people?

You are upset because I find believe in god/religion akin to a mental illness because it makes no sense?

You are upset because I can separate a person from their religion, since imo, religion is only one tiny fraction of a person's life. I can still be friends with anyone, hell, I have been friends with

ysobelle for over 6 years, until I guess she de-friended me because she can't see past my views on religion.

What makes me a bigot?

big·ot
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I'm not intolerant of anyone. I just find religion to be a horrible thing for modern society. Too many people are killed because of it. I have all kinds of friends, even ones that chose to believe in sky pixies, or vote republican. I tolerate religion, just like I tolerate people with other illnesses - it doesn't mean I want to join them.

Antihope, Quite frankly you seem to believe that what you have said upsets me. Well, to tell you the truth you have achieved a considerably different result. Disgust.
By the way, you mention N as being your friend. By what you have said, she must have been that "token jew friend" in your life. Sorry for you that she was the only one. But lets leave her out of this. This discussion is about you and your shallow beliefs. I realize what this thread is about. My comment on the other hand is directly about you and your inability to comprehend that blatant remarks regarding another person's heritage is wrong because it is not the same as your own.
"I thought you were from the USA"... this is a direct quote from you. Are you a f..ing moron? Nobody except Native Americans are from the USA. Everybody (including you) is from somewhere else. Got that?
You also keep bringing up mental illness. I wonder, you seem to know allot about it, maybe.....
Get to know a few more Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindi, Afro-Americans, Native Americans, Aborigine, Martians or anyone else of a culture not your own a learn from them.
The whole point of my remarks to you are very, very simple. Learn more before you open your mouth to speak. Go back and read or re-read your history books regarding world history.
Maybe throw in a little ethics while you are at it.
It is a fact which has been known for all time, If we do not learn from our mistakes, they will be repeated. Here is your opportunity to learn about values other than your own. Who knows, you may even make a few other "token friends" of other cultures.
As for me, NO, I'm not upset by you. No more than if I were swatting at a gnat. I further find that I have wasted far too much of my valuable time on this conversation and you.

As for me, my great-grandmother was Native American from the Cherokee nation. My other Great Grandmother was Pennsylvania Dutch, and her family arrived via boat in about 1712. Both of which predates "America" and *these* united states. My Jewish grandfather was the "newest" member to the US, although my grandmother said he was born here, I was under the impression that he came from Russia as a child. When I said "from the USA", the USA was founded in 1776, as a group of states that were formed, and wanting to work together (much like the current EU). Everyone that was born in the USA, regardless of where their parents are born, is from the USA. Not just the Native Americans. The USA is a country comprised of people from likely every other country in the world. It is a melting pot. Something I really find that this country should hold on to (and stop being morons wanting to build a wall between us and our southern neighbors - walls have historically been bad things, especially between countries).

As for mental illness, said PD great-grandmother had schizophrenia. My uncle committed suicide in his 20s (same side of the family), and I've personally fought depression for as long as I can remember. My grandmother and father (2 sides of my family) are both suffering from alzheimers. My father's (iq of 178) side of teh family includes a lot of alcoholism, and really smart people that never managed to get their lives in order.

Yes, I'd love to know more about my history. And, my history cannot be changed. My great-grandfather was Jewish. He married a gentile. They had four children together. His family had nothing to do with them. He died when the youngest child was 6 months old. Around when I was 4, his family decided my grandmother did have a use - to help take care of his senile mother, until she died.

As for "token" friends, that's a retarded statement. I don't care where anyone is from. Most of the people I work with are from China and Italy. Americans are 50% or fewer in my lab.

I'm glad I'm a waste of time for having different views toward religion than you do. You can't separate religion (a personal choice) from heritage (a past, that cannot be changed).

I wish the Israelis learned from the Nazis not to treat people the way they are currently treating people. The Palestinians are living, essentially, in a ghetto - just like the ones the Nazi's kept the Jews in before sending them to concentration camps. The Palestinians cannot leave. They are frequently killed for simply being in the wrong place. They have no electricity. Th eir food is allowed in at the (lack of) mercy of the Israelies.

If you consider me simple just because I find religion to be insane, then I don't know what your basis is. I'd also consider people that read Grimm's Fairy tales, and consider them to be acutal facts, to be a bit loopy, too. Or the Oddesy, or any other book of stories that have been verbally passed from generation to generation for millenia. Doens't mean they're not good books, but being a good book doens't make it real. Nor does the simple fact that people _want_ to believe in god(s) make them real, either.

I'm not going to get to know people based on their skin color or (lack of) religion. I get to know the people I meet, and usually don't question their religion, as it's really not of interest to me. Understanding how religions are formed, is somewhat interesting, but there are more important things I could be doing rather than reading the history of fiction.

And, please, how do i "disgust" you? You still haven't explained it, except when I asked "I thought you were from the USA" was obviously not understood to mean something about a country, not a physical point on a globe.

And, again, how am I insulting a "heritage". I must have a different understanding of what a "heritage" is than you do. Or maybe you consider a religion (choice) to be the same thing as heritage (birthright). So, as I asked before, do you care to elaborate, or are you going to continue saying I insulted a birthright, without basis? Saying it over and over won't make it true.

I'm glad you have martian friends, I'll try to find some of them when I get the chance. Until then, just the Asian and Europeans I work with, and being raised in Arizona (in a childhood without racism - I had plenty of black and mexican friends as a young child) will have to do for my cultural awareness. My parents were hippies, maybe that's why I view killing civilians as wrong. They are also not-religious, so maybe that's why I have no fundamental understanding of how people could be so fooled into believing in some screwed up god that requires worship and obedience.

Sorry, again, if I read "VERBAL VOMIT" as being something that upset you. I get upset when I vomit, so I assumed that meant you were upset.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

On the one hand....

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

on the one hand....

Re: on the one hand....

Re: on the one hand....