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On the one hand....
I set out tonight to get some ribbon, and work on a motif for my sign with Bev. We also thought it'd be nice to see Erin, who, with a broken arm, is almost housebound, and going out of her mind with boredom. So we hopped in the car and drove up to Norristown. And that's when it all started to go wrong....
Well, not wrong, really. We had a fabulous time at Ruby Tuesday's. But of course, by then, Michael's was closed, so no ribbon. But hey, there's a Lowes! So I dragged them both in to see the tabletop I was thinking of getting. Oh, but look! They have cedar! I can get the tabletop I wanted! So suddenly it's 10pm, Erin's broken arm is throbbing because her Percoset's worn off, and I have a trunk full of wood, carriage bolts, and spray paint. Then it's back to Erin's for ice cream and conversation until her eyes start to glaze over from the pain meds she took as soon as we walked in the door. Now it's after 2am. I have no ribbon. But I do have a tabletop.
And in other news?
Why the fuck do I even try? People are always going to believe what they want to believe about Jews. Whether they say, "Israel is killing civilians!" or "Jews are the cause of all the fucking wars in the world!" it's all the same thing. Anti-Semitism rises and falls in fashionable waves, but it never goes away. I'll keep shouting, but sometimes I just feel like a whisper in a noisy crowd.
Well, not wrong, really. We had a fabulous time at Ruby Tuesday's. But of course, by then, Michael's was closed, so no ribbon. But hey, there's a Lowes! So I dragged them both in to see the tabletop I was thinking of getting. Oh, but look! They have cedar! I can get the tabletop I wanted! So suddenly it's 10pm, Erin's broken arm is throbbing because her Percoset's worn off, and I have a trunk full of wood, carriage bolts, and spray paint. Then it's back to Erin's for ice cream and conversation until her eyes start to glaze over from the pain meds she took as soon as we walked in the door. Now it's after 2am. I have no ribbon. But I do have a tabletop.
And in other news?
Why the fuck do I even try? People are always going to believe what they want to believe about Jews. Whether they say, "Israel is killing civilians!" or "Jews are the cause of all the fucking wars in the world!" it's all the same thing. Anti-Semitism rises and falls in fashionable waves, but it never goes away. I'll keep shouting, but sometimes I just feel like a whisper in a noisy crowd.
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Btw, the US Army is also killing civilians. I guess that just makes me anti-western?
The Sudanese militants are murdering many civilians, too. Does that make me anti-sudanese?
You can be Jewish and still opposed to the slaugher of civilians. You aren't anti-Semitic if you're opposed to war.
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antihopeantihope (10:35:57 PM): i hope iran nukes the country
antihopeantihope (10:55:37 PM): You'er the only jew I talk to since I have no worthy family to talk to about these things
antihopeantihope (10:55:47 PM): Since they abandoned my gentile grandmother and her four children
Ysobelle (10:55:59 PM): Then I'd suggest learning a little more about Israeli history before you talk to any other Jews.
antihopeantihope (10:56:08 PM): I won't talk to other jews, likely
antihopeantihope (10:56:17 PM): they dno't seem to like people that aren't jews
antihopeantihope (10:56:27 PM): even if they're family
antihopeantihope (11:22:53 PM): Nikki, I ilke you as a person
Ysobelle (11:22:59 PM): Thanks.
Ysobelle (11:23:06 PM): But not as a Jew?
antihopeantihope (11:23:09 PM): But, I need to seperate the religious aspect
antihopeantihope (11:23:15 PM): no, i don't respect any religious people
Tell me again, Shyrie, why I shouldn't be angry? You started the conversation telling me Iran should nuke Israel off the planet. I've tried to explain to you that Israel didn't start this, and that the people you say are oh, so oppressed have targeted EXCLUSIVELY civilian targets, but you brush that off. I've tried to explain to you why Israel has done what it has, and that no, it hasn't stolen land. (We went to war over the Golan Heights because Syria was using the area to launch rockets at kibbutzim, and the entire region was given to the Jews as Jordan was given to the Muslims-- are you protesting Jordan's right to exist?) I've give you facts about the conflict which you also brushed off with "I don't care about stuff that happened before we were born!" and "But what about the children?" You've continually said that it's pretty much ONLY Israel that has been the transgressor-- implying that it's perfectly fine for foreign-backed terrorists to blow up Israelis: the only problem is when Israel strikes back. At terrorists who deliberately base themselves in civilian areas to use those children as shields. You've told me you don't like or respect Jews. The fact that you don't like other religions. I'm sorry to say, doesn't soften the blow.
I'm done. You don't care about learning the history of the conflict, and you don't care how deeply you've offended and hurt me. Send me your address, and I can send you back your money and your red corset, and we can be finished. I don't want to talk about this any more.
I'm done.
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1000 Conestoga Rd B334
Bryn Mawr, PA
19010
I offered to buy the corset out of friendship. Sorry you don't see that murder is wrong.
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You used me as a sounding board? You started the conversation explosively. You HAD to know it would offend me. You've never, ever asked me anything about being Jewish. You've never come to me with questions. You threw ill-informed, one sided arguments at me and haven't accepted anything I've said. You've taken two harsh examples of people who did bad things, judged and entire religion and culture based on that, and actually said you have no interest in learning anything further.
I'm not choosing religion over friendship. Don't you DARE be that puerile. You've offended the hell out of me, degraded me and my family and my beliefs, and vaunted your ill-informed arguments over any other possible point of view. You STARTED the conversation by telling me you think Israel should be nuked off the face of the planet, and now you seem baffled as to why I should have been so upset I sat up all damned night angry about it.
I am a Jew. I am proud of who I am, and what I am. My family is Jewish, and they're some of the kindest, most open, progressive people I know. I have many Jewish friends exactly the same. I'm sorry your experience has been different, but don't paint me and mine with the same brush as you paint your own. Don't tell me you like me as a person but not as a Jew. My Judaism is my history, my culture, and my family. Saying you think I'm a nice person but you don't like Jews is like saying I'm okay, you just don't like people like me. And that's racist.
I'm sorry you don't see murder is wrong whoever does it.
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Religion is a choice. I've never known anyone in your family other than you, so please don't say that I've degraded your family. I've said nothing about them. I'm upset at the Israeli army that is killing civilians. I didn't realize you and your family were a part of those groups. I thought you were from the USA.
And, I'm opposed to any religion, that doesn't make me racist. A religion is _not_ a race. A religion is a choice. A race is not.
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antihopeantihope (10:56:17 PM): they dno't seem to like people that aren't jews
antihopeantihope (10:56:27 PM): even if they're family
I've never known anyone in your family other than you, so please don't say that I've degraded your family. I've said nothing about them.
Please explain how you reconcile the above statement about those who are Jewish with the one below it about N's family WHO ARE JEWISH and by default included in the first, generalized, prejudiced statement.
On second thought...please don't bother. I'm fairly certain whatever circular, twisted logic you'd use would cause my comp to go up in flames.
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It is prejudiced based on personal experience. And, just becuase I have ideas set in my head about how I've been treated by a group of people doesn't stop me from befriending them.
Sorry, like i said.. i've also never talked to N's family. Which doesn't make my statement incorrect. They are included in the group of Jewish people I've never talked to.
And the *won't* in that statment wasn't saying I was not interested, it was more along the lines of the oppertunity wasn't likely to present itself. In the list of people I don't commonly come across: hindu, muslim, most african religions, south american religions - basically any religion that isn't in the majority in this country - Christian/Catholic.
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If you 'don't normally ask', then how the hell would you *know* you don't 'talk to very few Jewish people'? You must be basing your statement on *something*, so what is it? A person's surname? Their appearance?
I'm just dying to know. Really.
And this: "The ones I _should_ have access too (ie, family) abandoned the gentile side on the basis of religion."
Okay, on that basis, I should hate all Southern Baptist people from Virginia. My late mother in law was one. She was *horrible* to me (other members of her family, too, fwiw)...said some things to my late husband that were unforgivable.
So, following your logic about your grandmother, I *should* hate *all* Southern Baptists from Virginia, even those whom I don't know.
Can't you even begin to comprehend how *stupid* that is?
And your comment to Nikki that basically goes 'I like you, but not the Jewish you' is just beyond boggling in that you don't understand how bigoted that is. Substitute 'Black' or 'Mexican' or 'Asian' or 'gay' and *maybe* you'll see.
But probably not, because, y'know...that would actually involve using the grey matter between your ears as something else than what holds your bike helmet on your head.
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The difference I see between disliking people of a religion because of their actions has more to do with, imho, the *reason* for their actions. I dislike the Jewish side of my family because their interpretation - of the religion - is that if your child marries a gentile, that child is as good as dead. Therefore, the religious part is the part I dislike - knowing that had they chosen another religion, they probably wouldn't have made the same choices. It is not the same as said people being rotten people. I definately would dislike (Jehova's witnesses? I forget - the family that beat their 12 year old daughter to death by whipping her thrice fourty minus three or something times). It was a biblical punishment. It definately would skew my feelings towards that religion, too. And, I feel similiarly to the Pennsylvania-Dutch side, but I think my great-grandmother's actions were more to do with her scizophrenia than her religion.
) A person's skin color, parents, sexual orientation, eye color, birthplace are things that a person are born with. A religion is a choice. How many people say things "love the man, hate the sin". I don't like _any_ religion. Judaism just happens to be a religion, and by default, I'm not comfortable with people that believe in pixies in the sky, any more than I'd be comfortable knowing that people believe that Cinderella was their second-cousin. I also dislike Lawyers as a general rule, which doesn't mean I dislike _all_ lawyers, but they've made a choice to live a lifestyle I don't agree with (except for public defenders, and the like). I also dislke people that drive SUV's - especially the ones that chose to talk on their cell phones while driving them.
Either you can't differentiate between a person's choice, and things they cannot change or you just don't understand that I can. I try to not dislike religion, but I do. Tho, I really think I should pity people that believe in that stuff, as they seem mentally ill to me.
And, I still like Nikki. I've known her for years. She just tends to take some things too personally like I'm trying to attack *her*. When, really, it's just one aspect of her life. She's great in other ways. Loves animals dearly, can sew up a storm, be the life of a party. I think she's a great person, and I'm sorry she gets so offended over this kind of stuff. =(
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It's not somehow better to say you don't like my religion than you don't like my race. Both of them equally offend me.
If you say, "I don't like Jews," you are saying you don't like Jews. Like me. Like my family. Like my people. The time to find out more about us was before you decided you didn't like us. Though it's never too late.
Hamas, Hezbollah, and the PLO have targeted almost exclusively civilian targets, and used their own people as human shields. They began terrorist bombings in civilian areas within Israel. Yet you consistently paint Israel as the sole transgressor.
The US is not involved in any ground offenses in Israel at present. How you feel about that issue is completely separate.
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The US attacking Iraq, which is probably the main reason that the "terrorists" are attacking their civilians with suicide bombs (yes, I think that is really crappy, too) is part of the "trouble" in the middle east. It is all linked. I feel for the groups of people that have been kicked for centuries by the "west", and are continuing to be kicked. I consider them similiar to South and Central America. The main difference is those areas are currently working to build themselves up. I see the poor people in the middle east trying to get themselves together, but can't because their infastructure is constantly being destroyed by the agressors (the US in Afghanistan and Iraq, Isreal in Lebanon and Palestine). How I feel about the "west's" treatment of the Arabs isn't irrelevant, it encompasses more than just Isreal and the US. It also includes the seemingly ineffective Red Cross, and United Nations that don't seem to be able to improve the situation. But, maybe it's not their role. As for Jordan, I don't think I've read anywhere about those people feeling like they were under occupation.
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I live my life on one belief, what I believe, works for me. What you believe, works for you. I will not knock your beliefs and don't you dare knock mine!
My grandmother said something very profound to me as a child and have kept it and used it all of my life. I will share it with you now. I suggest you internalize this and use it for yourself from now on. "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, that to open it and remove all doubt".
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Religion, nomatter how many people chose it, is still a choice. Eye color, isn't. Nor are your parents, grandparents, country of birth, first spoken language (unless you're particularly gifted). I don't judge a person for what they are born into. I judge a person for what they chose. Religion is the opiate of the masses. More people have been killed in the name of god than any other reason - just look at the Holocaust for an example.
If you want to belive that bombing civilians is an acceptable solution to a miltary action against soldiers, then you have problems. If you are Jewish, Christian, Pagan, Muslim or whatever, and think there are some sky pixies out there that will reward you for killing people (or saying "thank you", or wearing pretty clothes when you go to church/synagogue/mosqute/fire pit/whatever), then I am just baffled by it. "This bomb is from Daniele and Isreal" (to the Lebanese people that possibly died from it).
You can think I'm a fool, but that doesn't mean I am. You haven't even explained to me what your "verbal vomit" is from.
Here is the situation, as I see it:
a few militant radicals attack some soldiers, and detain 2 (compare that to the 9,000 Palestinians - 1,000 held without charges) that are kidnapped and held in Israeli prisons (or the 500 people or so in Guantanamo Bay, etc).
Within hours, Israel reacts by blowing up civilian airports, power plants, bridges, roads, apartment complexes, farms, etc. The environmental damage caused by the oil spills alone is worse than the shit that happened in Alaska - and Israel wouldn't even let people try to clean it up before it continued to do more damage.
I am strongly opposed to destroying roads and treating civilians like ducks in a pond, that are shot just for walking around. (like in Palestine where people have been able to leave their constantly bombed country for 6 hours since Israel decided to continue their barrage on civilians).
So, point for point, what are your problems?
You are upset that I call a murderer a murderer?
That I am opposed to the killing of civilains in response to a military attack by rebels?
I wonder if Israel will even feel the least bit responsible for the wholesale damage they've done, and help them rebuild. I have my doubts.
You are upset that I dislike people that put religion before their family, like my Jewish ancestors (and mostly the Pennsylvania Dutch ones, too) - and that sums up most of my relationship with actual Jewish people?
You are upset because I find believe in god/religion akin to a mental illness because it makes no sense?
You are upset because I can separate a person from their religion, since imo, religion is only one tiny fraction of a person's life. I can still be friends with anyone, hell, I have been friends with
What makes me a bigot?
big·ot
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
I'm not intolerant of anyone. I just find religion to be a horrible thing for modern society. Too many people are killed because of it. I have all kinds of friends, even ones that chose to believe in sky pixies, or vote republican. I tolerate religion, just like I tolerate people with other illnesses - it doesn't mean I want to join them.
on the one hand....
By the way, you mention N as being your friend. By what you have said, she must have been that "token jew friend" in your life. Sorry for you that she was the only one. But lets leave her out of this. This discussion is about you and your shallow beliefs. I realize what this thread is about. My comment on the other hand is directly about you and your inability to comprehend that blatant remarks regarding another person's heritage is wrong because it is not the same as your own.
"I thought you were from the USA"... this is a direct quote from you. Are you a f..ing moron? Nobody except Native Americans are from the USA. Everybody (including you) is from somewhere else. Got that?
You also keep bringing up mental illness. I wonder, you seem to know allot about it, maybe.....
Get to know a few more Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindi, Afro-Americans, Native Americans, Aborigine, Martians or anyone else of a culture not your own a learn from them.
The whole point of my remarks to you are very, very simple. Learn more before you open your mouth to speak. Go back and read or re-read your history books regarding world history.
Maybe throw in a little ethics while you are at it.
It is a fact which has been known for all time, If we do not learn from our mistakes, they will be repeated. Here is your opportunity to learn about values other than your own. Who knows, you may even make a few other "token friends" of other cultures.
As for me, NO, I'm not upset by you. No more than if I were swatting at a gnat. I further find that I have wasted far too much of my valuable time on this conversation and you.
Re: on the one hand....
As for mental illness, said PD great-grandmother had schizophrenia. My uncle committed suicide in his 20s (same side of the family), and I've personally fought depression for as long as I can remember. My grandmother and father (2 sides of my family) are both suffering from alzheimers. My father's (iq of 178) side of teh family includes a lot of alcoholism, and really smart people that never managed to get their lives in order.
Yes, I'd love to know more about my history. And, my history cannot be changed. My great-grandfather was Jewish. He married a gentile. They had four children together. His family had nothing to do with them. He died when the youngest child was 6 months old. Around when I was 4, his family decided my grandmother did have a use - to help take care of his senile mother, until she died.
As for "token" friends, that's a retarded statement. I don't care where anyone is from. Most of the people I work with are from China and Italy. Americans are 50% or fewer in my lab.
I'm glad I'm a waste of time for having different views toward religion than you do. You can't separate religion (a personal choice) from heritage (a past, that cannot be changed).
I wish the Israelis learned from the Nazis not to treat people the way they are currently treating people. The Palestinians are living, essentially, in a ghetto - just like the ones the Nazi's kept the Jews in before sending them to concentration camps. The Palestinians cannot leave. They are frequently killed for simply being in the wrong place. They have no electricity. Th eir food is allowed in at the (lack of) mercy of the Israelies.
Re: on the one hand....
If you consider me simple just because I find religion to be insane, then I don't know what your basis is. I'd also consider people that read Grimm's Fairy tales, and consider them to be acutal facts, to be a bit loopy, too. Or the Oddesy, or any other book of stories that have been verbally passed from generation to generation for millenia. Doens't mean they're not good books, but being a good book doens't make it real. Nor does the simple fact that people _want_ to believe in god(s) make them real, either.
I'm not going to get to know people based on their skin color or (lack of) religion. I get to know the people I meet, and usually don't question their religion, as it's really not of interest to me. Understanding how religions are formed, is somewhat interesting, but there are more important things I could be doing rather than reading the history of fiction.
And, please, how do i "disgust" you? You still haven't explained it, except when I asked "I thought you were from the USA" was obviously not understood to mean something about a country, not a physical point on a globe.
And, again, how am I insulting a "heritage". I must have a different understanding of what a "heritage" is than you do. Or maybe you consider a religion (choice) to be the same thing as heritage (birthright). So, as I asked before, do you care to elaborate, or are you going to continue saying I insulted a birthright, without basis? Saying it over and over won't make it true.
I'm glad you have martian friends, I'll try to find some of them when I get the chance. Until then, just the Asian and Europeans I work with, and being raised in Arizona (in a childhood without racism - I had plenty of black and mexican friends as a young child) will have to do for my cultural awareness. My parents were hippies, maybe that's why I view killing civilians as wrong. They are also not-religious, so maybe that's why I have no fundamental understanding of how people could be so fooled into believing in some screwed up god that requires worship and obedience.
Sorry, again, if I read "VERBAL VOMIT" as being something that upset you. I get upset when I vomit, so I assumed that meant you were upset.
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*much love 2 u*
Need Copies of my Kinky Friedman discs?
And Mel, com on, when your last publicity photo makes you look like Osama-BilltheCat-Laden, is there any criteria by which you should be taken seriously?
And the Israels are total slackers at racking up civillians compared to, well, US.
Re: Need Copies of my Kinky Friedman discs?
I heard Leonard Cohen this morning. Your second patron saint, in my mind.
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It's not just Israel's fault in this. The problem is that just about everyone in the Middle East can claim ancestors' blood in that soil.
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Israel does what it has to to survive. Is it overkill, horrible pun not intended? I don't know. I just don't know what else they could do. Giving up land hasn't worked. Peace treaties haven't worked. What's left?
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Miss you.