Ahhh.

[ysobelle]

So I finally get up my courage to call Comcast again. This time? From the moment I picked up the phone to the time my cable came back on? Less than seven minutes.

But they're still bastards. For some reason. I'll think of one.



And a note to all and sundry? Please. I'm not blindly patriotic about Israel, but if you tell me you think it should just be blown off the face of the planet, OF COURSE I'm going to get upset. You might want to think about that before you say something like that to me.

Comments

[pikachette.livejournal.com]

Who the fuck had the nerve to say *that*?

[ysobelle.livejournal.com]

Oh, no one you know.

BTW, faaaabulous new avatar!

[mirroreyes.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly there... WHO THE HELL SAID THAT???

and WHAT where they thinking?

GRRRR...

glad the cable is taken care of though honey.
finally!

HUGS

[smileitsme.livejournal.com]

*shock* ? what ? how stupid

sorry if it's scattered i'm at work, and can't read the whole response

[antihope.livejournal.com]

ysobelle, I also hate the US's invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. This is just additional fuel for the fire, and more innocent civilian deaths that disturbs me. This whole war just makes me feel the desire to leave this country, and not want to be a part of any other country that supports killing of cililians for what a few people do. I also live in Philadelphia, who has the disgraceful history of bombing our own city and murdering some children because of what their parents did.

I said it. It has nothing to do with Religion, just the way the country is treating the civilians. So hate me. Whatever. My theory is that 250+ children have been murdered by the Israeli army in the last 3 weeks in Lebanon. They continue to destroy Palestine and Lebanon simply because those two areas are trying to recover kidnapped civilians. The country is continuing to build walls despite those areas being not in internationally "accepted" Israeli land.

The supposed "leaving" of Lebanon (despite the fact that the people have been getting starved out all year, since Israel lets food rot before allowing it to pass the borders of areas *INSIDE* Palestine is just insane. I'm sorry, as far as I'm concerned, it's an occupation until the invading army leaves the country. The Palestinian people's treatment makes me think of the old ghettos in Germany, where groups of people were forced to live in neighborhoods, and weren't permitted to leave. They can't even access their farms.

I consider Israel's attack on Lebanon to be akin to blowing up neighborhoods in Philadelphia, because a riot broke out in Camden. Israel refused to negotiate to release some of the 1,000 kidnappees that are detained without charges, instead chose to murder more civilians, simply because of 2 soldiers. Solidiers are fair game, not civilians.

I watch all of Israel's treatment and attacks, and I'm thinkin that Europe wasn't right to give that land to Isreal. They should have offered their own land to give a "home" to the Jews. I really don't like the idea of a religious state existing at all, to be honest. But, more than that, I don't like one country telling another what they can and cannot do inside of their own borders. I have real difficulty watching the US play in the politics of other countries, then leaving them to crash and burn - which is where the whole al queda (sp?) thing started from originally, which isn't entirely whats going on in Lebanon/Palestine, but is still part of the whole picture.

part 2.. i talk too much

[(Anonymous)]

I see it like this. Isreal, the US, and most of the rest of the world, are murdering Arab civilians, bombing their hospitals, roads, power plants, airports neighborhoods in Afghanistan and Iraq. They would just like to be left alone, but Isreal continues to occupy Palestine, and now Lebanon again (as if those poor people haven't had enough fighting to deal with in the last 20 years.. I mean, *FUCK* they just barely had a chance to rebuild at all). It's like kicking a sick dog that just started to recover from an illness. The civilians are being fucked by Isreal. How would you guys feel if your neighborhood was blown up because you couldn't get rid of the drug dealers, when you don't have the means to do it?? That is how I feel the Lebanese are being treated. And, of course they'll hate Isreal for murdering their families and destroying their homes. How would you feel towards the country that blows up yours?

Yes, I realize the Jews have been persecuted for a long time, so have the blacks.. Hell, as for a real slaughter of people, try to look for the Native Americans in the US. (My great-grandmother was from the Cherokee nation). I realize that persecution of people is wrong, which is why I'm just confused that Israel would do the exact same things to other groups of people only 50 years after Europe tried to eradicate all of the Jews.

I know I should look from other perspectives. Yes, the Hezbollah and Hamas are throwing rockets into Isreal - doing very little damage - as retaliation for the nearly nightly (even after the occupation "ended) in Palestine, and regular shooting of children for throwing rocks. I'm sorry the Lebanese and Palestinians don't have such a great military so it could be a fair fight.. But, Lebanon has a much better civilian to soldier murder ration than Israel right now.

As for the "blown up" thing.. Somewhat an exageration, as that would still be lots of civilian deaths.. How about leaflet the areas before nuking the whole place (after bombing the roads to leave). Get rid of all the "religious" crap areas that thousands have people have died over, and thousands more will. Let people learn how to live with eachother (as 20 years ago they were doing in Iraq) despite religious views. Maybe just give Isreal a chance to go back to the 1967 borders, which is what many people are complaining about. If they'd do that, I'd have much more sympathy for them, and support retaliation. But, I don't support retaliation for people fighting their occupation.

But, this whole thing in the middle east is just one additional reason I hate religion. All of these people are needlessly dying because of what some religious people insist "god" wants. If that is what "god" wants, than I want nothing to do with it.

Re: part 2.. i talk too much

[ysobelle.livejournal.com]

You say that your anger at this situation is at Israel. Then I have to ask why?

You mentioned the Golan Heights. Okay, let's start there. Israel took the Golan Heights in the Yom Kippur War-- named, by the way, because Syria, expecting Israel to be unprepared, attacked on the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. They were wrong. But why did Israel take the Golan Heights at all? Because Syria was using that land as a staging area for attacks on Israel. Firing rockets into the kibbutzim. At civilians, in other words.

You said that this is like blowing up Camden for a riot in Philly. I don't know where you get that. Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel from Lebanon, and captured two Israeli soldiers, in order to provoke Israel. Which they did. Israel struck back at the Hezbollah camps-- which are in civilian areas. In other words, in areas designed to use women and children as human shields.

Why did Hezbollah attack? Why does Hamas attack? Why does every nation that surrounds Israel attack? Because they challenge Israel's right to exist. Is this because of the land? No, Jews have been living there for 3,000 years. In the 19th century, as a matter of fact, there were many thriving Jewish communities. And if they were all so unhappy about the 1947 division, then they should be attacking Jordan as well, which was created at the same time by the already-occupying force of Europeans. (Jordan, in other words, is every bit as "occupied" as Israel. It's just occupied by Muslims.) They're unhappy because Israel is a mostly-secular, democratic Jewish state. You said last night that you don't care about things that happened before we were born. That's an incredibly myopic way of looking at a situation that's been volatile for thousands of years. Arabs do not like Jews. THAT is the root of the problem. Blaming Israel for that is like, in this case, blaming a mouse for the cat wanting to kill it. And THAT has been going on for thousands of years.

Israel IS a mouse, surrounded by millions of cats. The only way it can survive is through superior military power. It is a country surrounded by other countries that say very cheerfully that they do not recognise its right to exist-- even though they have no problem recognising Jordan, which is every bit as much a European construct. Israel wants to survive, not take over. Israelis don't go into Jordan and blow themselves up on busses full of schoolchildren. Israelis don't blow themselves up in family resort hotels in seaside tourist towns on Passover. Israelis don't cut holes in maps and textbooks and even beach balls so their children won't see countries they don't like.

Israel has tried peaceful solutions. They've made deals. Theyv'e even given up land. What happens? Let's look at Gaza. Israel turned over Gaza, and the Palestinians destroyed the infrastructure that was there. They ripped down the greenhouses for the copper fittings in the irrigation pipes. And has it stopped attacks on Israel itself? Nope. Syria and Iran still back militant terrorist groups who send suicide bombers into markets and downtown streets and set roadside bombs that kill-- you guessed it-- civilians.

If you want to be angry at someone's religion, be angry at the radical Islamic fundamentalists who think that the more Jews they splatter-- children included-- the faster they'll get to Paradise. Be angry at the ones who want to establish a wholly Muslim region from edge to edge-- they just have to get that one area the size of New Jersey first.

But as you also said last night that you don't talk to any other Jews because "they don't like to talk to people who aren't Jewish," I don't really see much of this making an impression.

Re: part 2.. i talk too much

[antihope.livejournal.com]

I deny the concept that Isreal left Palestine. It is just false. The people there are essentially living in Ghettoes. The Israelies still control all of the borders and roads - including the ones that are fully in Palestinian territory. They have constantly allowed food to rot at the borders - between Palestinian farms and their towns. I wonder if they ripped out the greenhouses for copper fittings and irrigation pipes simply because they had been left under a highly corrupt political party that was justifibly voted out of office, and democratically a group of people that had build many schools and clinics was voted in, and they had no money for food.

I look at it from the perspective of people, regardless of religion. The Palestinians don't have enough food to eat. They can't access their farms or food from the farms. The men don't have jobs because there is no money. People are terrified constantly because of nightly invasions and bombings by Israel (for years, not just since the soldiers were kidnapped). The people are being terrorized and starved. Maybe you'd react differently.

Okay, the other Jewish people I know are Chaim, who I don't think is religious, and an agnostic guy that works upstairs in my building. I also don't know many muslims. The only one I really ever talked to was a great guy from Syria who left the lab since his wife's visa wasn't renewed so she had to move back home. I'm sorry if t his means that you're one of the few people I talk to that is Jewish. I don't even really see Tim and Jenna Lynn anymore..

And, I also explained that the Jewish people in my family had nothing to do with my grandmother after her husband died, leaving her to take care of 4 young children on her own, simply becase she wasn't Jewish. Maybe if my extended family hadn't abandoned my grandmother, I'd have a better understanding. The whole crap with Gina and Brian, and his family's lack of tolerance. I accept that your family is different, as people from different religious groups aren't all the same (not all muslims are terrorists, and not all christians support this stupid war). But, keep in mind, those are most of my experiences with the Jewish people/community. So, if it's skewed, it's because the only things I've been presented with are skewed.

I was reading articles about plenty of people with other religions living comfortably together in many middle eastern countries before the US invaded. It seems that our invasion really sparked a lot of hatred from people that was easing its' way out. I know my aunt used to really love Morocco. Even my grandmother visited there years ago.

I do not support suicide bombers or bombers in high-tech airplanes killing civilians. Nor do I see them as different. Just one of them can afford metal explosive carriers. What, just because the guys in tanks don't die when they blow up a farmhouse, they're better?

And, regardless of who's Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Atheist, or Hindu. It doesn't make murdering civilians or taking foreign land by force acceptable. I don't understand how any, of any religion, other than possibly satanic, could find that okay.

Re: part 2.. i talk too much

[surlywench.livejournal.com]

"So, if it's skewed, it's because the only things I've been presented with are skewed."

If it's skewed, it's because you have not bothered to alter it.
You cannot judge an entire group of people simply because the few contacts you've had have been negative. Sorry. Try again.

Re: part 2.. i talk too much

[antihope.livejournal.com]

I agree to an extent. I don't like the idea of pre-judging a group of people on the basis of some people. I realize there are some different "types" of Jews, the Orthodox and Hicidic (sp?) and Jews for Jesus, etc. I guess the only ones I've been presented with are the people that put their religion before their families. I think those are the Orthodox ones. But, from what I've heard, according to the Jewish tradition, if your son/daughter marries a gentile, the family is expected to have a funeral for said child, and completely ex-communicate them. So, their treatment of the people in question (Gina, my grandmother) is not so much based on them as a birthright (such as being blonde), but as a religious choice (like becoming a Jehova's Witness). Religion is a choice, and it's hard not to judge a person when they chose it and live their lives according to those choices. There are different people.

The guy I knew from Syria, who is Muslim, helped me to understand that not all muslims support the war, either. He also helped me understand why al queda (sp) is so angry at the US. Which, in turn, explains why we're going to continue to have problems so long as we continue with the violence. The same reasons so many of our soldiers end up with "shell-shock" and aren't abel to fit into regular society, the men that were in Al Queda were similialy affected. The differences include, our soldiers will be given social, psychological and medical treatment, which will likely not be granted to the foreign soldiers simply because they don't have the money.

I also have a difficulty with the lack of separation some people use with the "Jewish" being both a religion and some sort of ethnicity. I seperate the two, as religion is a choice, parents are not. So, when the Jewish people I've met chose the religion as the basis for their treatment, I have a hard time seeing how that isn't their religion. (As for my grandmother's mother who also basically hated my grandmother when she broke from the Church, she was also scizofrenic, so it's hard to seperate the religion from her mental disorder).

What I'd really like is an understanding of how people can justify the killing of civilians, trying to escape bombed cities on destroyed roads or sheltering in their basements (or being shot after watching their sister get raped - like the family in Iraq). And why so many people insist that peace won't work, when I can't see that it's ever been earnestly tried.

Re: part 2.. i talk too much

[ysobelle.livejournal.com]

You keep saying you hate generalisations, and then you just make more of them. "Jews are this," "Jews are that."

Have you forgotten, somehow, that I'm a Jew? Have I ever treated you in any fashion that would, frankly, deserve you saying such incredibly hateful things to me? Just saying, "Well, I don't know any better," which is what you're saying, stops being an excuse after you reach, say, the age of ten. You have friends. You have a computer. You have libraries and social groups and newspapers and eyes and ears and a brain. Use them. You told me you don't care about things that happened before we were born. So stop basing your opinions of Jews on what your grandmother's family did to her. You have one story. I have many others. My parents never threw me out of the house for dating non-Jews. Nor did they with my sister. Nor have any of my Jewish friends. Every family, every religion has extremists. Basing you opinion of an entire race on the bad actions of two, and on stories someone told you, is the definition of racist.

And I'm sorry you have a problem with Jews identifying Judaism as a culture and a religion both. That's how we are. That's who we are. You're going to have to deal with that.

Also, you seem to have a problem with Israel (and it's spelled with the a before the e) bombing Hezbollah targets. How, then, do you not have a problem with Hamas, the PLO, and Hezbollah striking almost exclusively civilian targets? You have a very short memory. The PLO launched literally thousands of suicide bombing attacks at civilians since its inception in Lebanon. Its stated aim was the complete destruction of Israel. Let me say that again: they wanted-- they STILL want-- to completely destroy Israel. There are, what, 22 Arab states in the Middle East? There is ONE secular democracy. They want ZERO. So they wrap teenagers in bombs and send them off to street markets and pizza parlours and resorts and busses with children on them. And they kill civilians.

For years, Israel went through peace negotiations. They sat down at the table with Yasser Arafat-- who not so long ago came to power by forming the PLO specifically to destroy Israel-- and gave in to many of his demands. He got a Nobel Peace Prize. And what happened? Hamas. More bombings. More terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. So Israel strikes back at military targets: bunkers, training camps, houses of known PLO figures. And what does the PLO do? It targets more civilians. Israel gave up the West Bank. Israel gave up Gaza. And what has it gotten in return? More dead children. More dead-- let's say it together-- civilians.

You want to be angry at someone? Be angry at Hamas. Be angry at Syria. Be angry at Iran. Be angry at the PLO. Be angry at Hezbollah. Be angry at every country and terrorist group that sends arms and fanatics to the Middle East to destabilise the region and kill Israelis. You're angry that the Palestinians in Gaza live the way they do? Be angry that they destroyed the land they were given, and that they still raise their children with the idea that killing Jews will get them into Paradise faster. Be angry that in their first elections, they put into power Hamas, which claims it will not rest until it has destroyed Israel. If someone lived right beside you and swore publically they wouldn't rest until they had utterly destroyed you, your family, your country, and everything you held dear, and that G-d had told thim this was their holy mission, I think you'd defend yourself, too.

Re: part 2.. i talk too much

[antihope.livejournal.com]

A lot of what I've read says the Hamas want Israel to go back to the 1967 - internationally agreed - borders. They want Isreal to stop bombing their homes and killing their civilians (almost nightly, and over 100, while Hamas was agreeing to the cease-fire). And, they'd also like the more than 9,000 prisoners - about 1,000 of them simply kidnapped without charge to be released.

What they get is borders that let food rot. A bunch of Israelie people living, likely in homes that once belonged to Palestinian families that fled the war. That reminds me of when the Nazis stole the homes of Jewish peoople. Happily, when the Nazis finally returned the homes, they didn't burn them to the ground.

Sorry the Palestinians are in poverty, and like many people in poverty in Philadelphia, need to resort to taking copper fittings from buildings (like they stole from my uncle's wherehouse).

And as for individual Jewish people, I've had no problems with any one of them that I've met. I like you, too, Nikki. We've laughed together, I've teased you about your dogs, we've watched A Princess Bride together. I'm not against you, or Jewish people.

But, sadly, since you're basically the "closest" Jewish person I know, I use you as a "sounding" board for stuff. It's much better to talk to a person rather than to google it. Normally it fills me with a greater understanding.

I am opposed to suicide bombing, and bombing without a suicide involved. I'm opposed to doing it to a crowded marketplace, and a crowded vehicle full of Red Cross members.

Re: part 2.. i talk too much

[pikachette.livejournal.com]

Yes.

You talk too much.

And think too little.

Re: part 2.. i talk too much

[antihope.livejournal.com]

You're right. I think we should go in and kill some civilians. That way, the people that live will think we're grand, rather than join our enemies. It'll be different this time.